Robin ([info]zanfur) wrote,
@ 2006-08-30 16:40:00
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Entry tags:introspection, life, philosophy, psychology, rants

Not sure how to feel on this one ...
... so I'll just feel what I feel, I guess. My first response to most stressful things is an enforced apathy, so I'll have to wait until that goes away before I can get a read on how I actually feel about this. It's weird that I can't even figure out what I'm feeling, but there you have it. Forest through the trees, and all that. All I know is that my reaction is a strong one.

My dad just called me and told me he and my mother were having problems, and he's talking about leaving her.

My youngest brother is 16 now. I know for a long time my dad was sticking it out largely for the sake of us kids. I mean, there were other reasons, too, not just that. But, now that the kids are no longer very dependent on them, maybe those other reasons weren't quite enough to offset all the shit that is their relationship.

One of the reasons I'm so against high-maintenance relationships is because my parents' relationship took so much maintenance. Daily talks on the topic of "us" for weeks at a time, in and out of counseling since I was very little, and lots of literal, written contracts regarding behavior. I'm talking about mowing the front lawn before the back lawn, here, not about anything kinky. (Who knows? Maybe they have contracts about that, too.) Taking immense time off work to come take care of things in the family, rules about leaving work exactly at 5pm every single day no matter what.

I look at things like that, and the amount of time poured into simply maintaining the relationship -- not making it better, just preventing it from getting much worse -- and I really, really don't like it. I hear people talking about committing yourself completely to one person ... that's what my parents did. It sucks. My mother has no friends, and my father can't keep a job -- who wants to keep an employee who takes so much time off "for the family" that he's undependable? (Edit: After looking at some numbers from my Dad, I realized that this isn't actually true. He's had 9 employers in the last 28 years, with 5 months of being unemployed. This gives him a 98.5% employment record for those 28 years, with an average of 3.1 years per employer.)

Give me, instead, a relationship where we can just be happy with what we've got, little to no maintenance required. I'm happy? You're happy? Yay. When we have some spare moments, let's make the relationship even better -- but not in a way that requires maintenance. Lots of little things that require a little maintenance add up to LOTS of maintenance in the long run. Want a deeper relationship? Let's take a few hours and spend some time talking about what we want in our lives, or talk about how emotional things affect us. Let's share ourselves with each other, a one-time act that deepens our understanding of one another, and hence our emotional intimacy. Let's not make an agreement to have sex at least twice a week, or to see a movie once a week, or to give gifts once a month, or -- and this one is the worst -- never desire anyone else again. Let's let those things happen as we want them to happen, at the time. Strangely, when there's an actual dearth of something, the desire crops up anyway.

Now, when I promise to give you flowers every week, that's really sweet, isn't it? When I actually give you those flowers every week, is that really sweet? Maybe, especially at first, but after a while it's just the status quo. Let's say I don't promise, and I give you flowers somewhat sporadically, maybe averaging once every couple months, that's really sweet, isn't it? Even years down the line? When I've promised and don't bring the flowers, that's pretty low of me, isn't it? When I do something sweet that then takes lots of effort to maintain -- and that effort doesn't further help anything -- that's creating maintenance. That's stupid. It also makes it so the best I can achieve is status quo, and failing that is bad. Without the maintenance, giving flowers is a positive thing, and not giving flowers is the status quo. It's a difference between being able to make someone happy and being able to avoid making them sad. Stupid. Especially when you make lots of such promises.

That's about it. I'm happy? You're happy? Yay. No need to ask for more.

Actually, a lot of my philosophy stems from this concept. I don't look for problems to fix (badness to turn into neutral), I look for things to improve (neutrality to turn into good).I don't look back for mistakes I've made, I look back for things I could do better. I don't look for flaws in a design, I look for improvements that can be made. Personally, I think it makes it a lot easier to overall improve a situation, because instead of looking only at the flaws, you're picking the best way to improve the situation. Sometimes that improvement is made through removing a flaw. Sometimes that improvement is made by adding something new. In any case, things are how they are, and all you can do is go from there, so you may as well take right now as neutral and go for making it better.



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[info]feignedapathy
2006-08-30 11:52 pm UTC (link)
Wait, so the reason your parents couldn't make it work is because they committed to one person?

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-30 11:54 pm UTC (link)
Key word is "completely". As in, to the exclusion of friends, a job, a life ...

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[info]dreamingcrow
2006-08-31 05:47 am UTC (link)
That's not committed, that's "should be committed". People tend to confuse the two, unfortunately.

You have my sympathies. Any time parents split up, even if you see it coming, it can be seriously painful.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-31 07:21 am UTC (link)
Would you mind explaining the difference?

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[info]feignedapathy
2006-09-05 06:28 am UTC (link)
Sure. A commitment is a bond between two people. What you explained was obsession, an unhealthy, unbalanced situation.

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[info]loree
2006-08-31 12:06 am UTC (link)
Relationships aren't inherently high- or low-maintenance. Yes, all relationships take work, but in and of themselves they are only as high-maintenance as the people in them.

Do you judge all commitment by the example of your parents? It explains a lot about what I've gleaned about you if you do. Because, and forgive my bluntness, but SWEET BABY JEBUS FUCKING A RUSTY POGO STICK UP THE ASS EVERY TUESDAY IN DECEMBER, somebody in that relationship is an obsessive-compulsive control-freak energy vampire. "Commitment" isn't the remotely the right word to describe it, unless you're talking about padded rooms and jackets that buckle in the back.

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[info]dreamingcrow
2006-08-31 05:07 am UTC (link)
Loree: You expressed my thoughts on the matter a million times better than I could ever hope to do.

I think that I understand your positions on various things a heck of a lot better now, Robin.

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[info]grrlanimal
2006-08-31 05:24 am UTC (link)
Yes, and. High-maintenance is in the eye of the beholder. It is all clearer now. Definitely, their relationship isn't the norm for relationships called "committed". It sounds a lot like there was something that drew them together, but their relationship styles and expectations were radically different, and they put immense amounts of effort into mitigation. And that's the reality of what you grew up with.

My father dumped my mother for a very young woman as soon as I left the nest - I was the youngest of four. My sisters and I have all been involved with men who were cheating. I had a counselor point out that my father's departure was probably not sudden; that he had quite likely been cheating, and even though it was never acknowledged or spoken of, it was the reality of what we grew up with, and molded us. It was nice to have that defined like that for me - it's given me a better place to stand when I look at my relationships.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-31 07:19 am UTC (link)
Huh. In my experience, it's the norm. Of course, I'm attracted to people like dear old Mom ... so I'm pretty sure I have a biased sample.

You're dead on with the mitigation comment. I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's what was going on.

Sorry to hear about your father. I'm fairly certain my dad isn't cheating ... he has a very over-developed sense of duty, and precious little opportunity.

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[info]grrlanimal
2006-09-01 04:32 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that he was cheating - I was trying to illustrate how there can be things going on under the surface that profoundly inform our decisions later, without our being aware of them.

I'm just learning to not be attracted to people like both my mother and my father - cold, and withholding, with me being low on their list of commitments - just enough warmth, intermittantly, to keep me in there trying to replicate what brought it about. Now I have to figure out how to be attracted to healthy people.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-31 07:11 am UTC (link)
Yeah, that would be my mother. It goes a long way way toward explaining why certain things get my hackles up.

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[info]tomveil
2006-08-31 12:42 am UTC (link)
You're right. Relationships require work, because any time you have human emotions involved, there's problems. But it's done a little at a time, and not really knowing you're doing it. At least when you're doing it right.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-31 07:08 am UTC (link)
That's ... perfect. A perfect way of saying it.

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It'd be a shame
(Anonymous)
2006-08-31 03:59 am UTC (link)
albeit difficult at this point, to allow your parental examples to totally color your perspectives here.

A healthy relationship holds mutual respect, honor, appreciation, and courtesy, coupled with a sense of humor and triple dose allowance for human failings. It sounds like your parents didn't have much of that going on. Tough example to get beyond.

I speak from 25 years married here and randomly still, it seems like such a short time we've been wed. Honestly, it doesn't have to be the ball and chain, not at all! I like your flower example -- sometimes he brings them home and they're a sweet surprise, sometimes I buy them, and he's delighted -- the only promise that seems important is faithfulness to each other -- and that we appreciate each other's strengths and weaknesses.

sounds like your on your way to discovering a philosophy that will work for you-- at some point you'll come to terms with each of your parent's sets of quirks and foibles -- it sounds like they invested plenty of time perfecting their form of relationship -- better times ahead for I hope
(one of the parental units attending a Z Spencer party)

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Re: It'd be a shame
[info]zanfur
2006-08-31 07:26 am UTC (link)
Lacking the respect, lately. It used to be there. Really, though, I think they were working with something like a quintuple dose of allowance for human failings -- they just put forth an amazing amount of effort in mitigation.

I think I've already found a philosophy that will work for me. But then, I thought that when I was 12, and again when I was 16, and again when I was 18, and again when I was 21, and yet again now ... and they've all been different. I expect I'll look in another few years to to my philosophy now, and wonder what I was thinking.

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eh?
[info]ariata
2006-08-31 05:21 am UTC (link)
Not sure how to feel on this one ... so I'll just feel what I feel, I guess.

This implies that you usually decide how you should feel and decide to
feel that way...?

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Re: eh?
[info]zanfur
2006-08-31 07:10 am UTC (link)
It's said tongue-in-cheek. Many people decide to feel a particular way, and then force themselves to feel that way. I think it's a horrid way to handle your emotions. It's so very tempting, though, when the emotions are tumultuous.

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Re: eh?
[info]sonofzeal
2006-08-31 05:23 pm UTC (link)
If we could really control our emotions like that, relationships wouldn't have problems in the first place.

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Re: eh?
[info]zanfur
2006-08-31 05:41 pm UTC (link)
That was kinda my point.

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[info]cuzsis
2006-09-01 06:43 pm UTC (link)
That's rough. I'm sorry! :(

I know we don't always agree on relationships. But my parents divorced when I was young so if you need someone to talk/rant/whatever to feel free to email me (issaquah@excite.com)

If it helps I guess I'll just echo what everyone else here has said, monogomous relationships aren't always like that. Brandon and I still hang out with our friends. In fact, most of his friends are now my friends and visa versa. Most of the time we go out together b/c we naturally enjoy each other's company quite a bit (probably why we got married. ;) ). Sometimes one of us will go off with a friend "alone" (with munchkin), but usually that's b/c the other one is busy with something else (like work) and not because they don't want to come too.

"Working" on a relationship tends to occur naturally. You're just finding better ways to mesh your gears together to form a more efficient machine. Once in a while you may have a jolt when you do that, b/c overall it may be easier to change something you've done for 20 years than keep it the same (ie: remembering to take out the trash every night) But seeing as life is full of new routines it's really not that big of a deal. What's more, it's very uplifting and satisfying when you get to see how much better things are running and enjoy each other's company even more!

Hang in there!

(ps. I gotta agree on your thoughts about "contractual expressions of love". Didn't Bill Waterson do a strip on Calvin and Hobbes where Calvin was trying to get Hobbes to sign a contract of friendship, and hobbes said something like "If your friends are contractual, you don't have any." ?)

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[info]forwrathandruin
2006-10-05 12:42 am UTC (link)
It's a pleasure to see that we at least agree on HOW to maintain a relationship.

This is Steve, by the by.

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