Robin ([info]zanfur) wrote,
@ 2006-08-11 20:33:00
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Entry tags:introspection, philosophy, psychology, rants, relationships

Commitment and Variations
In my last entry, I mentioned a few things about exclusivity and commitment. This sparked some conversations in the comments that brought a few other interesting things to the forefront of my mind, and they're actually a bit more organized now.

There are at least two types of commitment. There's the "de facto" situational commitment, which comes from the environment you're in, and then there's the internal commitment, which is a decision to see something to its end.

As an example of situational commitment, consider going to college. If you are halfway through college, and you've taken out loans to pay for the first two years, you will be screwed if you drop out, have loans to pay, and can't command a salary high enough because you have no degree. You are situationally commited to continuing, because there's an immediate cost to leaving. If, at that point, you no longer care about your schooling, it's still in your best interest to keep slugging along. You may eventually hate it so much that you leave anyway, but it's less likely. That's a type of commitment.

As an example of internal commitment, consider going to college. If you are halfway through college, but all of your college career is paid for by grants, if you drop out, you're fine. If you stick it out, you'll be sinking more of your time into the gamble of coming out ahead in the end, but there's no "penalty" for ditching besides discontinuing to learn. If you stick that out, that's an example of internal commitment. There's no "cost" of leaving -- actually, there's a cost to stay, and you're hoping that cost will be worth it when you get to the other side. That's a different type of commitment.

Imagine what happens to the first student if someone comes and somehow makes all his school loans go away. Huge inheritance, rich uncle, whatever. If he doesn't care about his schooling anymore, that student will drop out of school in a heartbeat. There's no internal commitment there.

Now, take a look at exclusivity in relationships, and how it affects commitment. If exclusivity is a requirement for the relationship (romance, business partnership, whatever), then you've got all your eggs in one basket, so to speak. You're forbidden from setting up alternate options, which means that if the relationship dissolves you're left with nothing, and have to start over from zero. You're setting up a situational commitment: There is a cost to leaving, making it the easiest choice to stay, even if your heart isn't in it. This is a huge difference from open relationships, where you explicitly have other options readily available, and leaving only means that you don't get to continue.

What does this mean? Well, just as with school, it means you're probably going to deal with issues that arise, instead of just leaving. It takes a really big issue to get you to leave, because the cost of leaving is so high. You'll have fights but will work things out, and you'll be safer joining money matters because your partner won't leave so quickly.

After you've been together with someone for a while, you can look at the relationship and realize you've built something good. You can look back and realize that, even if you weren't situationally committed, you'd stay with them, because you care about continuing the relationship. Perhaps you've realized that you're becoming a better person for it, perhaps you've realized that you really like spending time with them, or perhaps you've realized that their presence makes your life better somehow. This is the hope.

There's another option. After you've been together with someone for a while, you can look at the relationship and realize that you've built something bad. You can look back and realize that, if you weren't situationally committed, you'd leave in a heartbeat. If you build something bad enough, as with college, it might be worth leaving anyway. And if that cost of leaving were to vanish -- for instance, by randomly (or purposefully) coming across another option, like another lover for emotional support or a different business partner -- you would leave. Then, exclusivity becomes what's keeping you together.

That other option is really bad. It's like the student who hates school, but is sloshing through it anyway just to get through it, because it hasn't gotten bad enough to warrant the cost of leaving yet. That student will probably never finish anyway, and just incur more loans as he keeps taking the short-sighted easy decision of one more quarter until he can't stand it anymore. It becomes a balancing act between the cost of leaving and the cost of staying, and that's just not fun for anyone involved, especially if it continues.

With exclusivity, you're gaining a situational commitment. That is, you're manipulating the environment around you to enforce a situational commitment, regardless of where one's internal commitment lies. This isn't always bad, by any means. It's great if, for example, you need a kickstart to build something. It gives you the safety of an environmentally enforced commitment, while reasons for an internal commitment can be explored and possibly created. This is often an excellent idea, and can lead to the first option, above, where you'd stay with them even if that situational commitment were to vanish.

With an open relationship, you're avoiding that situational commitment. You don't have the option of depending on it while you build something. On the other hand, you also can't get into that choice between a rock and a hard place, where you have to decide between the cost of leaving and the cost of staying. All commitments that exist are internal commitments.

What does this mean? It means that your partner has no reason to leave you, other than wanting to leave you. It means that if they want to leave you, there's nothing external that's stopping them. I'll say it outright: They're more likely to leave you, and they're more likely to do it sooner.

But! If you can manage to actually build something worth keeping, that first option above, they won't want to leave. The ones who leave will either leave before something is built (the downside of being in an open relationship), or after something bad is built (the upside). Whoever stays, you know they stayed due to an internal commitment, which isn't subject to environmental fluctuations, like meeting a hot secretary at work, or a one-time better price on a business deal.

Really, it's all the same arguments as for and against a free or controlled market.

What does all this mean? Well, if you think you have good chances of building something without any need for environmentally enforced commitments, then try open relationships. If you think you have bad chances of building something without environmentally enforced commitments, try exclusive relationships. Or, if you're like me and place great importance on avoiding the possibility of that bad, second option, go for open relationships. If you're not like me and place great importance on avoiding the possibility of losing a great partner at the beginning due to environmental fluctuations, go for exclusive relationships.

Personal choice and all that, but I for one prefer to avoid situational commitments. I don't seem to have problems building relationships worth keeping, even without that particular safety net.



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[info]omgnatalie
2006-08-12 04:27 am UTC (link)
I don't think that exclusivity is linked to insecurity at all.

For me, its a matter of emotion. Someone mentioned before that they wanted to be "the best" and that they were happy their partner was with THEM and not someone else. That is not insecurity, to me. In my opinion, if you are with someone that truly thinks you are THE BEST, why look elsewhere?

Also, yes... love and loss. That is what relationships are all about. You meet someone, you're captivated, everyone else leaves your mind, you stay with the person... and by no means, is anyone obligated to stay. That's why like half the marriages today end up in divorce. No one HAS to do anything. Being exclusive to someone doesn't mean you HAVE to do anything. When you're not happy with the person you're with, you leave. Simple as that.

And yes, you start out from zero. So? Sometimes that's the best part.

I think you're confusing the word "commitment" with "obligation." It seems like you view exclusive relationships like a task, like something that you can't ever escape from. Like if something happens, that you're screwed and you HAVE to stay with the person for whatever reason... which is sad. Relationships should be great experiences where you share your life with someone, enjoy their company, love them, trust them, give yourself to them (and themselves to you), and in the event of something happening that turns things sour, you leave to find something else.

I'll take Nik and myself as an example. Nik left because he was afraid of the commitment he had to me. He wanted to see what else was out there. He didn't want to be exclusive.
What he found was emptiness and lonliness. He couldn't bring himself to be with anyone else, because he was still in love with me. He was still committed to me, and still exclusive to me... even though we were broken up.

THAT right there is the whole point behind commitment. It IS in the heart. He left because he thought he wanted something else, but when he got out there in the world, nothing else compared. That is what someone in a relationship should feel, and that is why open relationships just aren't on the same level as exclusive ones, in my opinion.


I bet if you met someone that you absolutely loved EVERYTHING about, you wouldn't want to keep your options open anymore, and you might even be offended if she wanted to look elsewhere while with you. Do you think so?

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[info]syukton
2006-08-12 11:30 am UTC (link)
I bet if you met someone that you absolutely loved EVERYTHING about, you wouldn't want to keep your options open anymore, and you might even be offended if she wanted to look elsewhere while with you. Do you think so?

Suppose [info]zanfur has an ideal set of qualities that he's looking for in a partner, a list of things that his ideal partner would have every single one of. Suppose additionally that he has a non-ideal set of qualities, things that he's hoping to not find in a partner.

If he meets someone who has half of the items from the "desired" set and none of the items from the "undesired" set, it can be said that he loves everything about this person. However, it cannot be said that this person possesses every quality that he desires, and it is because of this that he will continue searching for someone else. Suppose then that he finds someone who has all of the items from the "desired" set, but also possesses maybe 10% of the items in the "undesired" set. This again would be non-ideal and would warrant a continued search.

So it doesn't matter if he loves everything about a person, it matters whether or not he thinks there is somebody else out there who possesses more qualities that he will adore and fewer qualities that he dislikes. More or less, it's a question of perfection--has he found the perfect ("best") partner yet, or not? If perfection is his goal, pursuit of that goal will likely go on indefinitely.

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[info]omgnatalie
2006-08-12 06:33 pm UTC (link)
so what happens when, after he realizes he loves everything about this person but she doesnt have every single last perfect quality, he moves on...

never to find anything better than her, and never able to get her back? that would be the other side of the fence. there might always be something better, but then there might NOT be too.

love is always a gamble. i'd rather take my chances and put 100% into someone i think is special, than question myself and give half of myself to everyone i meet.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-12 07:05 pm UTC (link)
Well, I don't have that issue, thankfully, because I don't need to leave them to find someone else. It's another nicety of being poly.

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[info]galith
2006-08-12 09:13 pm UTC (link)
I think the argument implied by [info]zanfur's post (that insecurity is correlated with relationship style) is self-enhancing bullshit. However, I'm not quite sure I understand your point either. What does it mean to 'put 100%' into someone, and how does being in an open relationship prevent it from happening?

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[info]sonofzeal
2006-08-12 09:50 pm UTC (link)
I think the assertion is that relationships are a zero-sum game, so any affection or love or whatever that you give to one partner is unavailable to the others.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-13 07:09 pm UTC (link)
You'd probably know if any studies on correlations between insecurity and relationship style that have been done. Have any? I'd really like to see the results, if so. I'm positive there's a correlation, although I don't think the lines fall along "poly" versus "monogamous". I think they'd fall more along the lines of "happy" and "unhappy".

I'm not talking about insecurity, by the way. I haven't used the words "security" or "insecurity" anywhere in the post. I don't think I've even described the concepts using other words (if I have, please point it out so I can remove it). What I'm talking about in this post is commitment, exclusivity, the connections between the two, and the differences between the two, as applied to relationships between people.

I did talk about insecurity, in passing, in my last post, which was a random thought-dump. I clarified what I meant in that paragraph here (though people seem to have only noticed that one paragraph, for some reason).

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[info]syukton
2006-08-12 09:18 pm UTC (link)
In his open relationships, he would never "move on" to something else. He would keep that almost-perfect relationship "in reserve" and just continue to "sample" what else is out there.

I'm just saying this from my understanding of where Robin's coming from. In reality, I completely agree with you, and I'm more of a monogamy sort of guy myself.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-13 07:22 pm UTC (link)
Not "in reserve", but "continuing to cultivate". I think of it rather a lot like growing plants in a garden: You don't need to stop caring for one plant in order to plant others. It's not like relationships (or plants, for that matter) will just "sit there" when put aside. They wither and die. When I have a diseased plant in a garden, I'll prune the diseased parts as best I can, but if it's unrecoverable, I pull it out so it doesn't disease the rest of the garden.

Monogamy is like a plant that takes up your entire garden. It means you either have a very small plot, or a very large plant, or both. When I've cared for a relationship enough, or more than one relationship, and there's no more room in my garden, then I'll have to figure out which plants to care for and let grow larger. Until then, I can care for more than one. Another option is increasing my plot of land, which in the relationship metaphor is analogous to more time and resources. Which, like land in a garden, are limited resources. Still, I don't like using a huge plot of land for a single flower.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-12 07:04 pm UTC (link)
I'm not confusing commitment with obligation. Even in an exclusive relationship, it's not an obligation. I can leave any time, and people do so every day. I'm talking about different types of commitment: the kind where you have little choice about continuing the commitment, and the kind where you have free choice about the continuing the commitment. Obligation is a belief that you have to do it even in the face of negative consequences. It's somewhat different.

I agree with you that the best kind of commitment is in the heart.

What's the point of being offended? If I'm not what she wants, I'd really rather she look elsewhere, and stop taking up my time. If I am what she wants, I'd rather she know it.

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[info]syukton
2006-08-12 11:10 am UTC (link)
You're saying that exclusivity is a mark of insecurity, but I'm going to say that inexclusivity is a mark of insecurity.

In an exclusive relationship, the only validation that one has that they are the best lover for their partner is the continuation of that relationship, exclusively. This isn't a lot of "evidence" that they are the best--that is, there isn't much that someone who is insecure can logically rationalize and use as "proof" that they are the best lover for their partner.

In an open relationship, the validation that one has that they are the best lover for their partner is had in every unfruitful relationship that their partner engages in aside from the one with them. There is, indeed, a numeric tally that an insecure person could keep of how much better they are than everyone else their partner has had relations with.

The constant reinforcement afforded by the open relationship seems to be a greater mark of insecurity than the monogamous "promise" of not looking elsewhere for something better. Moreover, the open relationship affords more opportunities to "fall back" when one loses ground with their primary or secondary lover; it affords them the option of crying themself to sleep in the arms of somebody else who cares about them, whereas in an exclusive relationship they would only get to cry alone. Considering monogamy in this light, the "putting all your eggs in one basket" attitude of an exclusive relationship is pretty gutsy and doesn't speak much to insecurity at all, speaking more to courage and resolve. Additionally, an open relationship is acknowledged as being able to end at any moment if something better comes along, and in this way one is constantly prepared (or I suppose, one can be constantly prepared) for the breakup, adding an extra layer of security for those who are insecure.

Thoughts?

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[info]omgnatalie
2006-08-12 06:36 pm UTC (link)
agreed. this is something i wanted to say, but couldnt quite get out of my head. :P

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[info]syukton
2006-08-12 09:19 pm UTC (link)
It was actually reading your comment to the entry which prompted that response, so you can take partial responsibility for it. ;)

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-12 06:57 pm UTC (link)
I'm not really talking about security here.

From an insecurity standpoint, I actually think it goes in the order of insecure poly, insecure monogamy, secure monogamy, secure poly. Possibly switch the first two around, so it's insecure mono, insecure poly, secure mono, secure poly as you move up the security scale. There may be a monogamy above that as well, but I really don't think people get there very often.

In any case, it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about here. I'm not saying that exclusivity is a mark of insecurity. I didn't use the word "insecurity" (or even "security") anywhere in there. I'm just talking about commitment, its various forms, and the effect of exclusivity upon it.

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[info]syukton
2006-08-12 09:23 pm UTC (link)
You're right, you didn't use the word "security" anywhere in this post, but it is how you summed up the previous one:

It seems that people who are a little insecure will want someone who will validate their insecurity, in the form of caring for them only if they have no other options. Hello, stereotypical monogamy. It seems that people who are secure in themselves will want someone to validate their security, in the form of caring for them even in the presence of other easy options. Hello, healthy monogamy and, with even more security, open relationships. Validation of self worth as the common theme.

You may have omitted the terms from this post, but the general idea was still present given that this post was somewhat a "continuation" or "refinement" of the previous one.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-14 01:08 am UTC (link)
That was an unfortunate ordering. It wasn't a conclusion, or a summing up, but just the last thought I wrote down before I decided to stop. I'm more talking about the first point of that post. You know, the one about how people seem think of "exclusivity" and "commitment" as the same thing.

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[info]corivax
2006-08-12 03:55 pm UTC (link)
I have met an awful lot of insecure polyfolk, and a lot of secure monogamous folk. As well as insecure monogamous folk and secure polyfolk. I don't think whether one feel secure or insecure corresponds at all to one's relationship style.

Sure, there are ways people act in monogamous relationships if they feel insecure - they fall back on the "rules". But there are also poly people who are insecure and try to be involved with lots of other people because it makes them feel desirable and important.

I think it's just: some people are happy in poly relationships, and some are not. It just works out that way.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-12 06:59 pm UTC (link)
I'm not talking about security at all here ... although I agree with you.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-21 06:47 pm UTC (link)
Err, I think it corresponds, but it's more like a .4 correlation and not a 1.0 correlation.

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[info]ariata
2006-08-12 08:15 pm UTC (link)
What'd you expect people to say/think when your last post was about security and relationship styles?

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-13 07:34 pm UTC (link)
I actually expected them to read and think first if they were going to post. Or perhaps post about something I was actually talking about. So far, only [info]omgnatalie mentioned anything about commitment, and even then her first comment was about insecurity.

Yeah, I know, I was wrong. I'm updating my predictive abilities accordingly.

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[info]mjtheanarchist
2006-08-13 11:18 pm UTC (link)
Relationships are about feelings and emotional preferences. They follow their own logic, which is probably why slide rules have such a hard time getting dates.

I think it's great that you have thought about and understand the logical reality of relationships. That takes a lot of observation and analysis, and the vast majority of people never get what's going on logically to the level that you do.

But there are lots of lonely computers out there, Robin.

What makes sense on a logical level rarely makes sense on an emotional one. And vice versa. Thinking has its place in relationships, of course, but they are *based* on feelings. And feelings don't care about the definition of commitment; they care about feeling chosen. They don't care about the evidence of self worth; they care about feeling valuable.

Your arguments are devestatingly rational, precise, and well thought out. How sad it is to lose a love by winning a debate.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-14 01:20 am UTC (link)
What have I lost? I missed something here.

I hear the standard "feelings aren't logical" argument quite often. I don't buy it; it sounds like the standard "I can't understand it so it must not exist" lines of reasoning. Feeling stem from a combination of instinct, trained responses, and perceptions. If you understand the instinct, the training, and the perception ... you understand where the emotion is coming from. We all share the same instincts, pretty much, so that part is decently easy to figure out: Given the same training and perceptions, people will feel like you would under those circumstances. The logic comes in figuring out the trained responses and perceptions -- and the trained responses are really just an extension of perception. If you perceive something differently, you often feel differently in response to it. That's not "logic" so much as "observation of correlation", but you can use logic to roughly determine how someone will actually perceive something, given their perceptive biases and ability. Using that, you can usually figure out how they're going to feel about it.

Relationships are based upon feelings, but those feelings are based upon other things, like perception of safety and benefit, and the instinctual desire for both that and procreation. If you have a relationship that is based purely on that "twitterpated" feeling (being "in love"), then you have a relationship based upon the instinctual drive to procreate. That's cool and all, but not what I want my relationships based upon. (I do want it to be part of it.) If you have a relationship based upon a perception of long-term safety and benefit, that's a different story altogether.

While I think it's junk that "What makes sense on a logical level rarely makes sense on an emotional one", I do agree that feelings don't care about the definition of commitment. They care about the perception of commitment. They don't care about what other people think is evidence of self worth, they care about feeling valued or worthy. But, you get that feeling of worth by perceiving yourself as being worthy. Evidence of self worth is how you perceive self worth. If, for instance, someone perceives exclusivity as evidence of value, then they will feel valued in such a situation and undervalued in others. However, the same "logic" applies in reverse, as well: If someone perceives a lack of exclusivity as evidence of value, then they will feel more valued in such a situation and undervalued in others. Even if it's not a sign of value at all from the person giving it. It's the perception that matters for feelings, not the truth of it, and I'm well aware of that.

I get the impression you really think I've lost something worthwhile. I don't think I have. If it's truly worthwhile, it will continue to be. If it's not, I haven't lost it. Either way, the only thing I've lost is an illusion of something that was never there to begin with. I'm okay with that.

Side note: I've mentioned this before, but the use of rhetoric is annoying. "How sad", indeed. And slide rules, and my name, and "lonely computers". It's not like I actually have a hard time getting dates, or using logic to understand emotions, or need my name mentioned to get my attention. I'm not even lonely these days, although that is a change from the norm. I welcome and enjoy your input, but please can the rhetoric. It's not like it's effective here, anyway.

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[info]mjtheanarchist
2006-08-15 12:25 am UTC (link)
I wasn't trying to be rhetorical or convince you of anything. I was trying to be honest and open about how I see things.

So, yes, I guess you did miss something here.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-15 07:37 pm UTC (link)
What did I lose?

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[info]psyham
2006-08-15 06:17 pm UTC (link)
I must say I find your examples of situational and internal commitment rather funny. You equate relationships with going to college, whether on your own money or on scholarships. The problem with that comparison being in a relationship, there is the other half, in your case, the girl, who is also paying their way and seeing if they'll get something out of you.

In the college example, you put work/money/time/commitment into your classes, and the college gives you professors, tools, education. But if you leave college because you hate school, the college doesn't care, it just finds another student to give them their money. However in a relationship, the girl has given just as much commitment to you. College is a one-sided journey, one where you are attempting to better yourself and work your way up in the world, a very selfish endeavor, or at best, a passive business relationship with the school you are attending. Personal relationships are all about selflessness, about finding a person who can help support you as much as you support them.

There has been some discussion in your comments about finding the "perfect" person to spend your life with. Perfection is a relative thing - there will always be things about the person you're with that will rub you the wrong way. The test of whether or not that person is "right" for you to stay with for the rest of your life is in how the both of you handle these quirks and how you solve the problems that come along. The issue I have with polyamorous people is that they tend to skip out on a person before they've had time to figure out if their partner is worth working through these tough times. How can you possibly think of raising children, with all of their issues and complications, if you can't hold a steady relationship? You can't just leave a son or daughter if they become troublesome. You have to learn to work through it.

I'm not saying that you don't know how to work through problems. It's just that when a relationship gets to dark times, people in exclusive relationships tend to work harder to get through them, and in essence become the better problem solvers.

In relationships, a person wants to know that they've got all the "eggs" in your basket, so to speak. They don't want to have to wonder if, when it comes time to make the big decisions, such as buying a house, moving to a new place, having children, etc., that you are busy dropping eggs off at other people's houses to see if they'll hatch. At that point the commitment goes beyond simple pleasures and having a good time, and gets into the realm of the bigger picture of life. You can't buy property and have kids with all of your partners... it's too expensive financially, emotionally, and mentally.

Of course, if your picture of life doesn't get that big, then I'm sure you have no problem with your current lifestyle. I will say though that if your reputation precedes you, you will have a hard time finding that perfect person to settle down with. What kind of girl, looking for someone to commit the rest of their life with, will want to go out with an established polyamorous guy?

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-20 02:50 am UTC (link)
That's a good point about the mutual commitment versus one-way commitment. The school is committed to teaching students, but it's much less personal. Still, you're not screwing over the school if you leave. Actually, it's a lot like polyamory, where there are other potential "students", so to speak. I'll try to find another metaphor that applies equally well to mutual commitments. The difference in concepts still stands, of course.

A side note: I'm not equating anything with anything else. A number have people have said, "You're equating X with Y, and they're not the same!" I know they're not the same. They have qualities in common, however, and that's what I'm getting at. Nothing so extreme as what people have been assuming.

That brings up another side note, although this one is more interesting: Nearly all of the responses I'm getting are "black and white" type responses. [info]qazwsxmko and [info]grrlanimal are notable exceptions, but other than them, it's been a bunch of things like, "Your obviously extreme statement is wrong, so my opposite extreme statement must be right!" It's as though people aren't capable of perceiving any sort of possible middle ground between the opposing viewpoints. It's scary.

Anyway. I agree that a lot of poly people skip out on a person before they've had time to figure out if their partner is worth working through the tough times. Of course, a lot of monogamous people do as well. I look at it this way: If the person is going to be someone who will stick around and work through the tough times, they'll stay, poly or not. The people who won't would leave in either case, be it monogamy or polyamory. It's like you said: How can you possibly think of raising children, with all of their issues and complications, if you can't hold a steady relationship? With poly, I'm much more secure in my ability to recognize if my partner can hold a steady relationship: If they couldn't, they would have walked at the first sign of trouble.

This is different than in monogamy, where people usually keep up a pretense for a (long) while when they're going to leave, until they find someone else worth cleaving to. I suppose that, by now, I'd be pretty good at recognizing when they're actually working through things versus just keeping up pretenses, but I've found that I'm pretty gullible, and easy to fool in these sorts of matters.

I do want a single partner. "Partner" is different, to me, than "someone I have sex with" or even "someone I'm romantically involved with". I have a single partner, although there are multiple people with whom I am romantically involved. I want to raise children with a single partner, and I want to join finances with a single partner. There are a few other things I want with only a single partner, for physical safety reasons.

I don't think being in an exclusive relationship makes you a better problem solver. The opposite, in fact, as you can hide the problems and never deal with them directy, for years. With open relationships, that hiding is very hard to do, and the problems get dealt with.

Not all people want to know that their partner has all their eggs in your basket. Me, for instance -- I really hate it when my partner depends on me for everything. I'd much rather they go make friends, and get some of their emotional support (and entertainment) needs met elsewhere. I can't be someone's everything ... and I don't think anyone else can, either.

I think you're mixing metaphors with the hatching of eggs. "Eggs in one basket" usually refers to "if the basket falls all the eggs will break", and I don't see how the "hatching" concept applies. If you're not mixing metaphors, would you mind explaining the part I'm missing?

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[info]grrlanimal
2006-08-20 11:44 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'm ancient, so I have a different perspective. :)

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[info]grrlanimal
2006-08-21 01:03 am UTC (link)
You know, the other part of it is, it's a very fresh issue for me. My relationship with V was disastrous in many ways, and had serious consequences for me. Part of what kept me involved with him for so long was my questioning the validity of my monogamy. I did finally come to the realization that his brain just worked very very differently than mine did. The ways he perceived things was utterly different, his boundaries were different, his context was different. And that it was just the way he was. And there is nothing wrong with me being monogamous, no matter how he tried to convince me that there was. I don't agree with poly, and I have very strong opinions about it, but I would never try to talk someone out of being poly.

You feel really strongly about this - are these posts working towards you really defining where your lines are? Or convincing others they shouldn't be monogamous?

An aside - it seems like a lot of poly people are proudly anti-breeder as well - is this your experience, too?

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-21 06:30 pm UTC (link)
That sounds like a horrible experience. I'm happy you're out of it.

The thing I feel strongly about is actually not "polyamory" but something kind of parallel to it. In my mind, a relationship between two people is between the two people, and no one else. If I have two friends, and friend number one tells me to not hang out with friend number two, that is an issue between me and friend number one -- and has nothing to do with friend number two at all.

If friend number one wanted to hang out but I was busy with friend number two, then friend number one certainly has a valid gripe, but that gripe is between me and friend number one, for not being there when he wanted to do something. Still, has nothing to do with friend number two. If I'm spending so much time with friend number two that I'm being a bad friend to friend number one, then friend number one could either a) demand that I be a good friend, or b) accept that I am the way I am and move on with their life.

With romances, there's usually a lot more time spent with someone. After a while, it's like a sharing of your life. You do errands together, you eat and sleep together, and you make decisions together. It's nigh on impossible to do this with more than one person, and I realize that. Still, if I'm being a bad partner, then my partner can either a) demand that I be a good partner, or b) accept that I am the way I am and move on with their life.

It has seemed to me that simply accepting who I am is the best way to go. That is, if I really feel like spending time with person number two over spending time with person number one, then that's what I'll do, and person number one can deal however they see fit. I'm being true to my desires. I run into trouble when others don't accept me as I am, and expect me to spend time with them even when I don't particularly want to, and claim that it's something I "should" do, whatever that means.

The way I figure it, if I'm not being a good partner or a good friend to someone, for whatever reason, then that's an issue between me and that partner or friend. If the relationship is worth enough to me to make it better, then I will. I it's not, then I won't. It's really a case of "let the chips fall where they will." That kind of lends itself to poly, because monogamy is a distinct agreement where you include particular actions with other people in the description of the relationship. It doesn't sit well with me. When I have agreed to be monogamous, I've never (as in, never, not even as a teenager) asked the other party to restrict what they do with others. Most of the ones asking for monogamy didn't do anything with others, but it wasn't for my sake. I just don't think it's a good idea to bring other people into a relationship. (Ironic, I know.)

I do value my friends and partners highly, and so I will generally patch things up if I'm aware of a problem. (I think I'm pretty good at noticing when that happens -- at least, I hope I am.) Still, in my eyes, those problems are usually communication problems or time and resource management problems, not "choose one or the other" problems. Sometimes they are; usually they're not.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-21 06:45 pm UTC (link)
I've found that there's a correlation between anti-breeder sentiment and liberal political leanings. I've found that there's a correlation between liberal political leanings and alternative sexuality lifestyles.

That's my long-winded way of saying, "Yes, that's my experience, too."

These posts aren't working toward anything in particular. I pretty much know where my lines are when I come to them, even if I don't know ahead of time, so I'm not terribly worried about that. They're largely exactly what they say they are: questing for truth. There's a largish chunk of motivation that's about telling the world how I think, and why, in what I assume are the standard cries of, "Please accept me!" that everyone goes through every once in a while.

The reason it came up so strongly, so recently, is that one of my ladyfriends decided to stop seeing me, quoting "not being physical with anyone who is physical with others" as one of her boundaries. Further, she said she loved me, wasn't jealous (and she wasn't acting jealous at any point, so I actually believe her), thought I treated her well, and was happy ... she was just leaving because it crossed a boundary she had decided upon. I don't know why she decided upon that boundary (or why she was crossing it before).

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[info]grrlanimal
2006-08-21 07:28 pm UTC (link)
Creation (or discovery) of boundaries - it's interesting. These conversations make me feel even more that we mainly operate by our guts, and put the words to it later.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-21 11:42 pm UTC (link)
I completely agree. I wish more poeple would realize that, though, and stop coming up with words to explain things that need no explantion.

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[info]zanfur
2006-08-20 02:50 am UTC (link)
I like that you brought up the "big picture of life" concept, because that's what I try to use. I reach a different conclusion than you do, apparently. Here's how I go:

In the big picture, I'm looking for the best mate that I can find. I'd like to be married and with a child before I'm 35. I'm pretty sure my mate would be very open minded, and not have strange religious hangups regarding sex. My mate would also be very self-aware, self-reliant, and have high self-esteem. If I "test" multiple partners simultaneously, I'm going to test more of them over time, and find a better one overall. In my particular case, I'm pretty sure that someone who would refuse to go out with an "established polyamorous guy" is not someone I'd actually want as a life partner. So, rather than put blinders on during the couple years I'm dating someone, I'll plant multiple seeds and see which plants grow the healthiest.

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